Not That They Care That They Don't Make Sense
May 8, 2008
At Positive Liberty, Jon Rowe looks at the religious right's arguing that gays are both (1) successful high earners who lead privledged lives and (2) promiscuous, drug addicted alcoholics. Writes Rowe:
I'm sorry but common sense dictates that a social group cannot at once both be that dysfunctional and so successful that their household incomes are almost 80% above the median. That would take hyper functionality. Gays would have to be arguably the most socially functional social group to be that successful.
Of course, the Nazis accused the Jews of being both the bankers and communists.
Comments to "Not That They Care That They Don't Make Sense":
James Clark | May 9, 2008, 7:32am | #
Likewise communist ideologues weren't usually homeless either.
But this is somewhat trite. I think we all know that you get highly successful and highly unsuccessful people who are gay... Just like "normal" folks.
Generalizations are the province of the ignorant.
Bobby | May 9, 2008, 9:48am | #
I don't doubt gay success, gays are more likely to have a college education, compared to their straight counterparts.
However, I know that in certain companies it helps to be married to a woman, then you can invite your boss to dinner, your wife becomes friends with his wife, and soon enough get you get that promotion. In the gay world, we don't have that.
Pat | May 9, 2008, 10:02am | #
I think it's simply a matter that opponents of gay rights will talk from either side of their mouth when it suits their purposes. Sure, on the one hand we gay people are all promiscuous, drug-addicted alcoholics (when these hypocrites are not looking in the mirror), and do their best to perpetuate it. But when it comes to anti-discrimination laws, they could then point to statistics that gay people, either on average or the median, do better than the general population, to oppose these laws. Of course, this doesn't help those on the lower end of the income scale who is being discriminated against.
Also, I would be careful on the income statistics anyway. As a commenter on the linked article indicated, these represent the figures for openly gay people. It's been suggested that those who persons who are educated and are more successful are more likely to be openly gay.
ColoradoPatriot | May 9, 2008, 10:19am | #
Bobby: "In the gay world, we don't have that."
Speak for yourself, Bobby. Some of us are proud of our relationships and are not afraid to have the boss and his wife over for dinner.
Michigan-Matt | May 9, 2008, 12:24pm | #
Hey, I'm proud to admit that the boss's wife in our family is M-M partner... so he's at the dinner table everynight -except for Tuesday in the summer when he's doing the tai chi thing near the banks of the Huron River and I take the family to Zingermanns.
I wouldn't hazard, however, that most gays are economically advantaged over other non-gay couples; I don't think that's true. I guess I'm not worried about what WorldNetDaily reports... or the confused amalgam of what gay's think the religiousRight is thinking about them... LOL
My experience has been that most of our gay friends (not all) are not upwardly mobile, career advancing or flush with disposable cash. Most gays I know are debt ridden, living paycheck2paycheck, on their 4-5-6th real LTR and still have furnishings left in their household from the 1st LTR move-out and break up. And they seem to spend more on potent potables and shoes than we do.
Is that dysfunctional? To me it is but they seem to thrive on the drama all that ensures. Are they still my friends, you betcha... I just don't expect 'em to bring beer, wine, a dish to pass or flowers when we invite them over for a Sunday bar-b-q.
But Stephen, was this line even needed?
"Of course, the Nazis accused the Jews of being both the bankers and communists."
Let's leave the Nazis in the LAST century, ok? They don't go well with gays.
Priya Lynn | May 9, 2008, 7:06pm | #
Northdallass idiot said "Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Owen Wilson, and innumerable other Hollywood luminaries manage quite well to be high earners who lead privileged lives and promiscuous, drug-addicted alcoholics.
The stereotype of alcoholics or drug addicts being out-of-work bums laying in gutters is quite unreflective of the majority of the people who qualify as both."
Once again Northdallass tries to claim the exceptions are typical of a group. Hollywood actors aren't typical people and it certainly isn't typical for promiscuous drug adicted alcoholics to be top wage earners. While they may not all be out of work bums laying in the gutters they are typically in the lower eschelons of society. Clearly the religious right is totally disingenous and Northdallass liar is right at home with their attempts to opress innocent gays
Priya Lynn | May 9, 2008, 7:16pm | #
I might add that it doesn't take a particularly functional person in the first place to be a hollywood celebrity and despite that Britney Spears', Lindsey Lohan's, and Owen Wilson's careers have all taken sharp downturns since their personal troubles. Northdallass claims to be wealthy, maybe he's a promicsuous drug addicted alcoholic and that's why he thinks such people are top performers....Moron...
Charles Wilson | May 9, 2008, 8:21pm | #
Most gays I know are debt ridden, living paycheck2paycheck, on their 4-5-6th real LTR and still have furnishings left in their household from the 1st LTR move-out and break up.
And I wonder what your "friends" say about you.
Bobby | May 9, 2008, 11:32pm | #
"Speak for yourself, Bobby. Some of us are proud of our relationships and are not afraid to have the boss and his wife over for dinner."
---My experience with coming out is that people either treat you like you're weird, like you're different or like everyone else.
Sometimes you don't even know if straights are being nice to you because of political correctness, liberal bias or because they simply like you.
So Colorado, you can paint a rosy picture if you like, but the reality is that most heterosexuals are not used to gay couples in real life, maybe they don't mind them on TV, but in real life is a little bit more awkward.
Jon Rowe | May 10, 2008, 1:35pm | #
Thanks for the link and discussion. It looks like this woman now got fired from her position and is going to sue the university which opens a whole new can of worms.
Michigan-Matt | May 10, 2008, 5:30pm | #
PriyaLynn, that must be one big mean, ugly chip you've got up on your shoulder. I read both NDXXX's comment and Stephen's review of Rowe's piece and NDXXX's comment doesn't mention typical anything... you do, repeatedly.
I understood him to say that it isn't necessarily an either/or proposition (hence his examples of very successful, well-off Hollywood star addicts and their capacity to continue "functioning" in a destructive manner.
And that the two concepts (addictive/destructive conduct and successful appearances) are NOT mutually exclusive. In Hollywood, stars can be viciously addicted and still "function" in the Hollywood star-mode because of well-paid and well-heeled enablers.
You rush off into a rant about "typical" and smear NDXXX left, right and center without honestly noting he didn't say what you spun it into... it's a hazard and affliction that seems to be inherent in your depiction of NDXXX's comments here.
Frankly, there's no way to explain your intellectual dishonesty except to note that you have some serious baggage in both arms when it comes to NDXXX and anyone who dares disagree with your opinions -no matter how uninformed your opinions might be.
I'd suggest you try to work on getting that big mean ugly chip off your shoulder, leave all that baggage you're carrying on the front stoop or one day you'll wake up a blog troll, hunched over from the weight, looking for fights that don't exist... it isn't a pretty future.
And, girl, the whole "Northdallass idiot" smear is just lame... you're lowering yourself to the uncivil trolls who call him North Dallas Liar... see, that big mean ugly chip is wearing you down faster than a tube of lube at FolsomStFair.
Michigan-Matt | May 10, 2008, 5:46pm | #
CharlesWilson ponders: "And I wonder what your "friends" say about you."
I believe in rewarding good conduct, Charles, so I'll toggle the ignore button "off" for now and answer your question.
Lucky you should ask... this past week, MM-partner and I celebrated our 15th anniversary together with an evening party at our home. We had about 370 guests for dinner, two bands, the pool was heated and of those guests, about 1/2 were gay families like us. Of the 130 invites we sent out, all but three responded... I don't have to guess because I know our guests had a great time, wished us well in the future and appreciated what the evening meant to our community in Ann Arbor and friends from around the state. Friends from Vermont, DC, Oregon and Arizona joined us.
It was a fun, rewarding, enriching party and a great way to celebrate our continued success with others in our community.
Hope that answers it for you.
Charles Wilson | May 10, 2008, 7:21pm | #
MM-partner and I celebrated our 15th anniversary together with an evening party at our home. We had about 370 guests for dinner, two bands, the pool was heated and of those guests, about 1/2 were gay families like us.
Did you get up on the stage and tell them, "Most gays I know are debt ridden, living paycheck2paycheck, on their 4-5-6th real LTR and still have furnishings left in their household from the 1st LTR move-out and break up?"
Or did you follow your usual pattern of lying in their face and saying what you really think behind their backs?
Craig2 | May 10, 2008, 9:27pm | #
Er, all this when the current US President once thought 'things went better with coke' (and I'm not talking about the pleasant-tasting non-alcoholic beverage...)
One other point, though. Pentecostal BACs like pointing out how depraved they were before they got godbotted. Just do a search for those who did drugs before the event in question...
Craig2
Wellington, NZ
Hank | May 10, 2008, 11:51pm | #
MM I usually think you're way to harsh for someone who is obviously a committed Christian.
But congratulations on your anniversary - and I too wish you many more years of happiness with your guy and your family.
And Priya Lynn, keep up the good work.
Michigan-Matt | May 11, 2008, 9:04am | #
Ok Charles, someone tries to be nice to you and provide a response to your query rather than simply ignore you again and that sneering, vengeful meanness comes out of you in full force.
It got you banned and barred from lots of sites from topics as diverse as political commentary to medical issues to travel blogs to community discussion boards to military blogs to gay activism boards. You've tried to intimidate blogmasters and peer commenters with threats of legal action, promised to ruin them without mercy. You're strange little mind, mister.
Some day, some how, some where reality is going to sink in for you. That's troll-ish behavior, pure and simple Charles.
The ignore button is back ON.
Hank, thanks for the well wishes.
Returning to the thread, I was reminded this morning of the Robert Downey Jr story where he was able to maintain a successful life, graduate into doing black tar heroin and if it hadn't been for an initial traffic stop, he'd have probably kept right on going. His money quote was about the point NDXXX rightly raised above: RD Jr, "I could have kept going strong in the drug addict's life because I always had ready cash and willing friends to help me".
Granted, Robert Downey Jr isn't gay but he does clearly demonstrate what NDXXX was saying -it can happen: not all bums are in the gutter, just ask Hillary where Bill is.
Charles Wilson | May 11, 2008, 1:05pm | #
The ignore button is back ON.
You really ought to dispense with that, MM. Anyone who's been looking in here knows that you are "ignoring" nothing. How can you, as I catch you in Republican lie after Republican lie after Republican lie? Ha!
p.s.: Woof. Damn.
Priya Lynn | May 11, 2008, 2:43pm | #
Michigan matt, Northdallass idiot is a chronic evil liar and you're his sockpuppet. Yeah, I can't stand evil liars who attack innocent gays and attempt to smear entire communities with the isolated wrong-doings of rare individuals, what of it. That you would defend a scum bag like him merely highlights your own lack of integrity.
Priya Lynn | May 11, 2008, 2:51pm | #
And Michigan Matt, like the biased partisan you are, you missed the point I was raising altogether. It doesn't matter that there are exceptions to the rule that being a promiscuous drug addicted alcoholic ruins lives, the fact is that is what typically happens and it completely destroys the religious rights ideas that gays in general are both disproportianately successful and mentally ill drug addicts.
Priya Lynn | May 11, 2008, 3:10pm | #
And Michigan Matt, before you rant again about how Rowe and Northdallass liar didn't say "typically" but I did, Rowe refered to gays "as a group" - that means typically and that is what Northdallass Liar responded to so you're completely out to lunch.
Charles Wilson | May 11, 2008, 3:41pm | #
Seeing as how Matt wants to imply that he's not a Republican, not a wingnut, and not gay, I thought it might be fun to assemble a Gay Michigan-Matt Greatest Moderate Hits list:
Michigan Matt leads wingnut boycott of gay website in Tampa.
Garden variety wingnut Clinton hatred at far right-wing "Gay Patriot" site.
Michigan Matt throws the terrorist card at website he doesn't like.
Michigan Matt rants against liberals and says (his quotation marks) "gay marriage" comes from the far radical Left.
Someone decries attempted murder of four people in a gay bar. Michigan Matt says: put away the victim/pity card.
Charles Wilson | May 11, 2008, 3:44pm | #
And these:
Michigan Matt sides with the American Family Association's "clean up TV" campaigns.
"Moderate" Michigan Matt unloads on Democratic Party leadership.
Michigan Matt supports expulsion of high school student for film that showed chest-high pic of two males snuggling in bed, calling it "porn-as-art."
p.s.: M-M has called it "stalking" to do a Google search on someone's Internet postings. Yet, as anyone following all of this knows, he and his sock puppets have done exactly that with my Internet postings. The difference between M-M and me is that I don't object to being Googled. Have at it! But if research is "stalking," then let's call what M-M is doing by the name he has picked.
Charles Wilson | May 11, 2008, 3:46pm | #
One more thing: M-M quickly dropped the implied claim that he's not gay, which he made in an earlier posting on the Independent Gay Forum. That was a bit too Craig-ish, wasn't it, M-M? Ha!
Michigan-Matt | May 11, 2008, 8:01pm | #
Priya Lynn, it's a cruel heavy block of a chip you continue to carry on that shoulder... look to Charles Wilson's trollish, embittered, mad-dog-angry petulance above... it could be you in less time than Charles can create another ranting spew fest.
No, NDXXX didn't say anything about it being "typical". That was YOUR spin -and an ineloquent spin at that.
You tried to diminish his fair and proper observations by dismissing them as lies and misconstructions.
I know being a victim is big business in the FarLeft, but you don't need to try to play the part... it'll come soon enough on your very special march to be the new Charles Wilson.
The Gay Species | May 11, 2008, 8:22pm | #
My limited experience with Michigan-Matt on "GayPatriot" confirms Charles Wilson's observations. In one series of rants, M-M apparently discovered the uses of Boolean searches, "uncovered" a biography of mine, and then thought he was "outing" me involuntarily, for disagreeing with his rabidly right-wing ad hominems and near skinhead views. M-M, to his surprise, was only three decades "too late" with his involuntary "outing," a note other GayPatriot readers found offensive in itself, but only confirms M-M can offend even the rightest of the Right Wing.
BTW, I've been "out," advancing GLBT causes in the workplace, since the 1970s, including the management of Hibernia's Castro and Headquarter's facilities, while M-M is shooting himself in the foot (or foaming at the mouth) for "outing" the already "out," for disagreeing with his rabid right-wing views and ad hominem attacks.
Imagine? Someone thinking "outing" an already "out" gay man for disagreeing with his ad hominem attacks and rabid right-wing and skinhead views does not violate M-M's standards, which may explain his defenses of Phyllis Schafley, Alan Keyes, and Newt Gingrich. I've long since avoided GP, but does he support Reverends Hagee, Paisley, and Wright, too?
Since M-M hides behind a moniker, afraid of being known, I would not take stock in any of his comments -- whether he is straight, queer, gay, or mentally unbalanced. That said, I do not want to imply that such concealment is due to the fear of homophobia, or from personal embarrassment of his extreme views, or that M-M's lack of character refutes his views.
I think his views do that sufficiently on their own. M-M, if closeted gay, gives reasons to stay in the closet, and if straight "parading as gay," gives reasons to "come out." Not for his sake, but for the sake of being an open, honest, out-front gay man has many advantages, not the least of which is not being victimized by those who would involuntarily "out" gay men in a self-deceived deviousness in "outing" the "out" to achieve perverse thrills.
M-M has reasons to hide in shame behind his moniker. Unfortunately, M-M has no shame. Perhaps, that shamelessness bears most heavily in the family of resemblances of the views he espouses, which are much closer to Queer Theorists' views, tactics, and values than he knows.
Charles Wilson | May 11, 2008, 10:02pm | #
I guess Michigan Matt has decided to formally "unignore" me. What a child! Speaking of which: M-M, did you hold that fabulous party at Chuck E Cheese, or what? Ha!
North Dallas Thirty | May 12, 2008, 1:20am | #
And that the two concepts (addictive/destructive conduct and successful appearances) are NOT mutually exclusive. In Hollywood, stars can be viciously addicted and still "function" in the Hollywood star-mode because of well-paid and well-heeled enablers.
Excellent point.
And particularly well-emphasized here, in this thread full of individuals who enable such behavior among gay and lesbian people.
The statistics are out there, and they are rather stark.
As this particular source puts it:
Studies show that at least two million gay men and lesbians abuse alcohol and as many as 30 percent of us will need chemical-dependency treatment at some point in our lives -- three times the odds facing the general population.
As for promiscuity, the numbers are even more obvious; 90% of all new HIV cases in San Francisco annually are in gay men, just for starters.
The gay community maintains a culture of denial that is both astonishing in its depth and horrifying in its totalitarian view towards anyone who would dare criticize the behavior of another gay person.
Which is why, twenty-five years after the AIDS epidemic first broke, rates of drug abuse and HIV infection are RISING among gay youth.
Charles Wilson | May 12, 2008, 3:10am | #
Ah, North Liar Forty. What are you on a coffee break from your job at Focus on the Family?
PBS | May 12, 2008, 7:05am | #
Of course NDxxxhole only highlights one of the results of societal attitudes regarding gays but ignores those attitudes completely
Would this make a case, then, against the perils of heterosexuality?
1 in 5 Americans between the ages of 15 and 55 are currently infected with one or more STDs, and 12 million Americans are newly infected each year. Some young people have parents who may have had multiple sexual partners with relative impunity. They may conclude that they too are safe from disease. However, most of these diseases were not around 20 to 30 years ago. Ah, we learn from our parents and for the majority of us they are of the heterosexual variety.
Patrick | May 12, 2008, 11:44am | #
Gay Species, that's interesting observation because I use to read Gay Patroit when you were ranting over there with foaming spittle and I noticed that Michigan-Matt used to TAKE ON the far right views of many there regarding a host of topics from immigration reform and building a wall across the US's border to whether or not the Republicans COULD and SHOULD wrestle the party away from the influence of the that vast right wing conspiracy. He took a lot heat for it.
I also remember you from GayPatroit and you were one of the biggest barn-burning lefties since Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. No wonder you didn't like Michigan-Matt; he represents all that you despise and want to silence in America, in the gay community, in life.
Your "claims" of Michigan-Matt hiding behind some moniker is silly and disingenious. He's been open and candid about his life; both on Gay Patroit, here and other sites.
But silly and disinegious pretty much sums up your comment and that of stalker Charles Wilson, our little racist who thinks people being killed by typhons and cyclones is just "asian stir fry". Nice crowd you hang with, Gay Species.
Given your hard left leanings, Gay Species, I doubt you'll ever take anything said by anyone outside your little "San Francisco values" clique. The truth is you, like the many times banned and blog-stalking racist Charles Wilson, don't think anyone should confront or call your hateful, religiously-bigoted views into constructive criticism. When they do, your precious egghead explodes. Just like in this thread.
How very Obama of you. We'll just keep clinging to our religion and guns while you tell us what to think. Oh wait, maybe that's why no one reads your blog... or the blogs of sockpuppet creator Charles Wilson?
Patrick | May 12, 2008, 12:46pm | #
By the way, Charles you continue to be banned and barred from sites for using that standard "lying" spew and hate-filled monologues. Are you trying to add YET ANOTHER political blog to the list this week? That would make 3 political blogs that banned your hateful speech, 2 military blogs and an entire military blog network that barred you from comment, a travel site, a medical issues site, a food groupies site (what could you have done to make people so mad even about food –that ego of yours is supremely extremely out of control), plus barred and banned from community discussion forums, and so forth.
Yep, I guess you're intent on adding yet another blog to the list of banned sites where your hateful participation is no longer tolerated.
Charles Wilson | May 12, 2008, 7:46pm | #
blog-stalking racist Charles Wilson
Wow, you're really kicking and screaming and stomping your little feet there, aren't you? What's next? That I'm ... I'm ... I'm a poopy-pants? Ha!
ETJB | May 12, 2008, 9:50pm | #
Sterotypes are often comforting -- they help to demonize people who are somehow different then you. It can be about race, religion, ethnicity, gender, class, disability, politics, sexuality.
Although I suspect that gay people of a certain socioeconomic class are more likely to be out.
North Dallas Thirty | May 9, 2008, 3:01am | #
Not really.
Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Owen Wilson, and innumerable other Hollywood luminaries manage quite well to be high earners who lead privileged lives and promiscuous, drug-addicted alcoholics.
The stereotype of alcoholics or drug addicts being out-of-work bums laying in gutters is quite unreflective of the majority of the people who qualify as both.